Words by 2 non-fascist Turks

Group about Greeks

boras
The Turkish state is one of the many problems caused by Wilson's 14 
points in World War I.

Essentially, in post World War I Europe, the victors were looking for an 
excuse to break up the multi-ethnic AustrioHungarian empire. To

this end, they made a big deal of the idea of "ethnic self 
determination" whcih translates to each ethnic group having its own state.

The Ottoman Empire was not split up so, but rather divied up by the victors.

The modern Turkish republic was founded by a young fascist general named 
Mustafa Kemal (known generally as Attaturk). He selected

the borders of modern Turkey based on defensibility. However, to justify 
these borders, he hit upon the idea of declaring that the new

republic would really be the homeland of ethnic turks. This is kind of 
laughable in that so many different ethnic groups with a wide

variety of ancestry call themselves Turks. The original Turks, a nomadic 
tribe in the Asian steppe are long lost to history; they were

given financial support by the Chinese to attack the Mongols, which they 
used to conquer lots of land. Every group they conquered

became known as Turks.

But Attaturk wanted to make the Turkish state look legitimate, so 
everyone who lived within the borders was declared to be a Turk. A

history was manufactured to "prove" this "fact", and all sorts of 
propaganda and threats were advanced to make this a cultural reality.*

Anyone who questioned this mythology was challenging the legitimacy of 
the government and was, in effect, committing treason.

That is why the state really goes after these revisionists.**

* I attended first and second grade (1976-1978) in a state school in 
Ankara, and I recall a significant portion of the curriculum was

concerned with inculcating the propaganda into us.

** As a big fan of Murray Rothbard, I think revisionists are just great. 
Often (though not always) they expose inaccuracies in commonly

accepted narratives of history.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 30, 2007
Atilla Yayla and The Emperor’s Latest Clothes

[Originally published in Turkish Daily News]

Next Monday, on July 2, a Turkish professor will be on trial in Ä°zmir. 
The prosecutor will ask the judges that he should be put in prison for 
three years for the crime he committed in the same city about six months 
ago. The alleged felony is not something like theft, robbery or fraud, 
though. It is about “insulting Atatürk,” Turkey's revered founder, and 
the accused is Dr. Atilla Yayla, who teaches political science at 
Ankara's Gazi University and who is also the founder of the Association 
for Liberal Thinking.

But how did Dr. Yayla exactly “insult” the father of all Turks? Did he 
swear at him, or named the Supreme Leader with some inappropriate title 
that would hurt the sensitivities of the widely Atatürkophillic nation? 
No, not really. What he did was to argue, in an academic speech, that 
the period of High Kemalism — during which Turkey was under the 
unchallenged rule of Atatürk and his political party, the CHP — was 
actually not much of a progressive era in Turkish history. In an 
additional heretical comment, he criticized the abundance of Atatürk 
photos and statues in Turkey and warned that the more we become global 
the more other nations would ask us, “Why does the same man appear 
everywhere?”

Interestingly the same question has been on my mind since my secondary 
school days. I remember that I became even more curious in the mid-80s 
when I watched a documentary about authoritarian regimes such as the 
Soviet Union or communist China and the way they created cults of 
personality in order to manipulate their societies. Those tyrannical 
regimes are gone, thank God, but you can still see what I mean very 
vividly if you comparatively observe the national days of liberation 
held in Ankara and in Pyongyang. Of course the two capitals host very 
different regimes — the former has a quasi-democracy, the latter has 
none — but the mass ceremonies organized in their giant stadiums in 
order to venerate their founding leaders have a striking, and tell-tale, 
similarity.

Actually these might not be appropriate issues to indulge deeply — and 
safely — in the Turkish media, as the trial of Atilla Yayla teaches us 
well. Yet let me still proceed cautiously, and at least touch a bit upon 
his first argument, i.e., that the era of Atatürk was a period of 
regression, not progress.


By Their Fruits We Know

The reasoning that led Dr. Yayla to that unconventional judgment is 
derived from his political philosophy. It would not be an exaggeration 
to say that he is the most prominent advocate of classical liberalism in 
Turkey: The 50-year-old professor believes that individuals should have 
the full power to shape their lives and states should have only a very 
limited control over society. He is a follower of great liberal thinkers 
such as John Stuart Mill, Friedrich Hayek or Milton Friedman.

Therefore Dr. Yayla values political regimes according to the degree 
that they value freedom. And, for him, the period of High Kemalism 
(1925-46) accounts to a very illiberal era: Civil society was crushed 
and the state dominated virtually everything. Even in the pre-Kemalist, 
i.e., Ottoman times, according to Dr. Yayla, Turkish society had more 
freedom.

Of course Kemalists — the dedicated followers of Mustafa Kemal — would 
offer a justification to this unpleasant reality. “You first need to 
suppress freedom in order to create a modern society,” they would 
probably say, “and Atatürk's long-term aim was to introduce liberty.” 
Fair enough. But then they would need to explain why they are still 
against freedom seven decades after Atatürk. (In case you haven't 
noticed, self-declared Kemalists in contemporary Turkey are the most 
passionate opponents of free markets, free ideas, free individuals, free 
Muslims, free Christians, and free intellectuals such as Orhan Pamuk, 
Elif Şafak, or Atilla Yayla.)

“By their fruits ye shall know them,” once said a wise Nazarene. And for 
people who have a taste for freedom, not only the roots but also the 
fruits of Kemalism seem terribly sour.


The Supra-Human Savior

Dr. Yayla's case is indeed just one of the many examples that can help 
us understand what Turkey's official ideology is and how it works. 
Another notable and recent incident was the trial of İpek Çalışlar, 
whose meticulous book about Atatürk's one time wife, Latife Hanım, 
created controversy and, once again, alarmed public prosecutors. Mrs. 
Çalışlar was accused of committing a “crime,” too, and that was simply 
an anecdote in her book: During the early days of the Republic, she 
reported, Atatürk's presidential palace was surrounded by a hostile 
gang, and he escaped from the back door while wearing the all-covering 
black chador of his wife. This was considered as an insult to the 
Supreme Leader, who, as a supra-human, is not supposed to have fears or 
experience disgraces like other mortals. The fact that Mrs. Çalışlar 
referred to the authentic memoirs of Latife Hanım was irrelevant: Such a 
national hero simply couldn't have escaped in travesty.

The way of reasoning that surfaces in this example is breathtaking, 
isn't it? We are not supposed to explore facts about Atatürk to figure 
out who he really was. No, the logic is rather the reverse. Our elders 
have already figured out who he was — a supra-human savior — and if 
there are facts that contradict that official picture, they need to be 
silenced.

Even if the supra-human Atatürk didn't exist, Voltaire could have said, 
he needs to be invented.

So, this is the gist of the “State ideology” that, according to 
President Sezer, all Turkish citizens have to side with. Luckily there 
are free minds among us such as Dr. Yayla who can think outside the box. 
No matter what our nomenklatura decides to do with him, we will be proud 
of his courage. He, despite all odds, dared to say that our Emperor has 
indeed no clothes.


Comments
(Note: Comments on articles do not necessarily reflect Mustafa Akyol's 
views. The fact that particular comments remain on the site does not 
imply any endorsement by Mustafa Akyol of the views expressed therein. 
Comments that are off-topic or offensive may be summarily deleted. )

Time and again we read these hateful secularophobic articles, but never 
ever does Mr.Akyol illuminates us with what should have really be done 
instead of what was done. Ataturk is bad, secularism is bad, female 
emansipation is bad, voting rights for women is bad. It is all 
regressive and reactionary. We should go instead the way of such great 
liberals as "free Muslims" like Khomeini and his likes. What a great 
country would it have been with all the women parading in hijabs, with 
no liquor stores and other by-products of this evil, inhuman secularism, 
imposed on freedom loving people by these despicable secular "bureaucrats".

Long live freedom. Down with Kemalism and oppression of masses.
                                            
Grand
a lot of rubbish deleted. those guys/dolls you mentioned above do not
have a clue how to critisize Turkish regime. Because they are by
products of similar regimes. To critisize Turkish regime meaningfully
one has to start from EU$.
EU$ has a mono-law, mono-culture, monolithic socio-politico-economic
structure based on their secularo-fascist constitutions. Turkish
constitution is just another copy of such constitutions. It is waste
of time to critisize Turkish regime while we have the source of such a
mother regime as EU$. When we sort out EU$ with our effective
critisizm then saellite regimes like Turkish regimes will come in line
without resistence. That's what we have to do, that is what I am
trying to do here.
                                            
Marciango
Bring the Taliban over that will be good for you Toorks
                                            
boras
We might not have a real democracy here in the EU countries but I would 
not that say we have fascism and minorities are protected.
A French speaking Swiss can speak French and an Italian Swiss can speak 
Italian without fear in Switzerland.
In Turkey the Kurds are not free to speak their language.
I am against the European Union so far for wanting the same laws for all 
EU countries which can't work because people place different values on 
different things but I rather be ruled by a bunch of semi democratic 
ignorant capitalists then by Islam or Kemalism.
You can say on the Internet or on YouTube that to your opinion president 
Bush is an asshole and nobody will threaten with war or will call you 
and threaten to kill you.
Compare that with Turkey and insults towards Ataturk.
People are getting murdered in Turkey for saying " Armenian genocide " 
while others ( Nobel price winner Pamuk ) move to the USA.
If you are against governments are you then for an Islamic state or are 
you an anarchist?
                                            
Grand
protected by whose laws?
only SPEE's laws protect their own culture, they don't need to be
patronized by EU$'s mono secularo-fascist laws.


I think you deliberately distorst what I am talking about when I use
the concept of SPEE, so let me repete it:

An SPEE has her own laws made and recognized by her memebers.
An SPEE has her own leadership elected according to her laws and
culture.
An SPEE has her own economical resources.
An SPEE has all power to shape her own culture.
No SPEE has any right to impose her laws to other SPEEs.

In this context speaking language is just a cosmetic make up;-))
Because in EU$ speak as long as and as much as you like, as long as
you don't stand up and as a dignified human-being claim that SPEEs
have right to make their own laws and implement them to their own
peaople. If you do that you'll be seen as a real threat to secularo-
fascist mono-law, mono-culture socio-politico-economic system of EU$.


yeah talk about laws, so that you talk more meaningfully.


actually I don't care by whom you choose to be ruled, what I care is
SPEEs right to make their laws and implement them to their members.
But you don't stop there to be ruled by your own choice of semi
democratic ignorant capitalists, no you impose your semi democratic
ignorant capitalist laws to muslims and others - and I am calling you
guys in short secularo-fascists. You can't bear to see SPEEs makeing
tehir own rules and implement them to their members. You are against
multiplicity, you are monolithic, you are the number one enemy of
human kind.


read above, yes you can say as long as your sayings stop short start
hearting the secularo-fascist structure of EU$. Can any SPEE also
declare freedom of their law making and implement them to their own
people;->
No, you cant even form a company to achieve that;->>


they are already killing you softly with their love by imposing their
laws to SPEEs. They are assimilating them to secularo-fascism, mono-
culture by their mono-laws. This is killing, this is tyranny, this is
open enmity to humankind. But you are not even aware of it. They are
doing a real good job Mate;->>>


who cares about Turkey and other satellite states with constitutions
basterded from the constitutions of EU$?
Talk about real engineers of this tyranny, rather than petty puppets;-


- Hide quoted text -
                                            
Nashton
You keep on ruminating the same ol' tired word salad, using long words 
you probably don't understand.

Could you please post your nonsense to another ng where people are 
interested?
                                            
Panta
Nashton writes:
 


LOL! Well put! I didn't find myself the proper word for his garbage which I
usually don't even read. I suggest he posts his garbage exclusively in SCT.

OTOH, more and more people on the Usenet learn something about the Turks'
special form of "intelligence" from examples like Blahblah Bey the criminal
Turk, chorosick, the slimy perverted Turkish swine or Grand Sen~ile, the
Turkish nutcase with a message for the world! ROTFLOL
                                            
Grand
yeah, yeah I probably don't understand, the Genie of the Lamp whispers
them into my ear and I post them here for you. And you rather than
saying "I don't understand!"  say "probably you don't understand!".
Yeah yeah we all don't understand, it is all Genie's fault, you happy
now;->RO(T/F)L
                                            
Nashton
I understand that you're a little deranged.
                                            
Grand
if you believed so you wouldn't even bother to point out. I know
something really bothering you what I have posted here. In fact I
don't post them here for you to understand, but for you to get exposed
to them.
And you have been exposed, you can't roll back;->>
                                            
gogu
Are you on drugs my dear islamo-fascist Turkish TROLL or what?
                                            
Grand
You wish I were;->>
But when you run out of arguments for your secularo-fascist tyranny,
like ex-soviets you start excommunicating your critics as demanted or
insane or on drugs. Sad, but the same end is at hand for your secularo-
fascists too - the end worse than the ene of soviets.
Your tyranny will be dissolved and replaced by SPEE oriented human
system.
                                            
boras
Nope. I rather have Turkey stay out of the EU but the EU should support 
the Kurds who are opressed by the kemalist Turks.
There are no Turks. It was an invention by Kemal Ataturk.


Wrong again. I am for the European union but not for an European 
parliament which is slowly replacing the national parliaments.
I don't want the United States of Europe.
Catalonia, a part of Spain won it's semi independence.
One day Scotland will declare its independence.

You can form a commune and have your own rules.
The way I understand you is that you want a theocracy.
People should be ruled by their religious leaders?
Is this what your trying to say?
Move to Iran then.


We have perhaps 10 thousands of " mono laws " as you call them. If we 
should have different laws for every religious group and sect and laws 
for mixed interaction between various groups .....
If you don't want a theocracy ( I think you do ) why don't you become an 
Anarchist. Do some reading on Bakunin and Emma Goldman, Prodkin.
                                            
Grand
You are right there are no Turks, Like Ataturk would say all Turks ara
Kurds. Kurds who slurp their shoes on the graound make trurks, turks
thats what those kurds are called Turks;->>


what you don't realize is in every state of EU$ there are more than
one SPEEs and each one of those states of EU$ are mono-law, mono-
culture states dictating their laws by force to the SPEEs living
within their borders.
This has nothing to do with European Union or no Union. The structure
is there a mono-law secularo-fascist structure, small or large doesn't
make any difference.



No, I have nothing to do with theocracy or non-theocracy. I am not an
SPEE by myself am I?
I observe that there are SPEEs and their freedom to make their own
laws and implement them to theri own members is banned. In place some
secularo-fascists make laws and impose their laws to all SPEE.
Who am I that I should _want_what laws for what SPEE?
This way of thinking is alien to me for it is secularo-fascist
thinking that they must dictate what laws which SPEE should obey -
namely their secularo-fascist laws, nothing else.
Am I saying here that one of those SPEE's laws must be distinguishyed
from the others and that SPEE's laws must be imposed to other SPEEs ?
NO!
If I did I would end up as a scularo-fascist as yourself!
Rather, I say no SPEE has any right to impose their laws to other
except their own free-willed members.

that is not your problem, you are not the saviour of SPEEs are you?
But as being a secularo-fascist you can't help yourself to play the
saviour of all SPEEs while imposing your mono-law to them all, can
you?


You don't know what anarchist crave for. I am not craving for no-law,
am I? What I observe is there are SPEEs whose right to make their own
laws and implement them to their members are denied by you mono-law
secularo-fascists. Every SPEEs making their own laws and implementing
their own laws to their members is not called anarchism. Therefore I
am not an anarchist. On the other hand I don't promote any one of
SPEEs laws as you secularo-fascists do as super-duper-universal laws
to be imposed to all SPEEs. Therefore I have nothing to do with
theocracy, in fact theocracy is just a mirror image of secularo-
fascism, I could easily call it theoclaro-fascism. But for the sake of
brevity I call both secularo-fascism for they are both mono-law
systems. They both assumes their laws are super to be imposed to all
SPEEs.
I say again and again here "NO SPEE has any right to impose its laws
to others except their own members."

You got it?
Now you go home and think about it!
                                            
Nashton
Nothing to get, really. Just meaningless drivel.


Nothing to think about.
Now take that poster of Guevara off your wall and get a job!
                                            
Grand
then give yourself a break, what I post here is not meant for you,
just ignore them.
                                            
Protagoras
Well, this is globalism for you. One of the most powerful tools
globalists use against the sovereignty of Greece is the Athens News
newspaper. Read it and find out how they are trying to re-engineer
public perception. Detect how everything foreign is glorified but
everything Greek is criticized. The will devote an entire page to
Muslims in Athens but a find of an ancient tomb will get a tiny
article. Some of their Letters to the Editor are more anti-Greek than
the stuff written by the most vicious trolls here.

Response to:
Wrong again. I am for the European union but not for an European
parliament which is slowly replacing the national parliaments.
I don't want the United States of Europe.
Catalonia, a part of Spain won it's semi independence.
One day Scotland will declare its independence.
                                            
Grand
EU$ with her secularo-fascist constitutions grind any SPEE to naught.
It is on the way to degenerate all SPEE to create a monolithic,
monotonous non-culture.
Lake old plantation people destroying all natural habitat to clear
ground to grow bananas. EU$ is on the way to create human plantations
to turn differenences among cultures to bananas. So whoever joins to EU
$ I salute them saying "Welcome to the Grand Banana Republic of
Secularo-fascism!";->>>

But you guys can make a difference declaring secularo-fascism as enemy
number one of human-kind. You can look for the future the rebirth of
SPEE oriented socio-politico-economic systems to be saved from the
tyranny of secularo-fascists.
They will scare you like they do in the Animal Farm that if they go Mr
Jones will come back;->>
Say "NO!"
Say "YOU ARE NOT OUR BOSSES!"
Say "WE have a right to make our laws!"
Say "YOU secularo-fascists have NO right to impose your laws to us!:
Say "YOU secularo-fascists are PEN1 (Public Enemy Number 1)"
                                            
Mhitsos
viestissä:[email protected]
Please tell us. What is " SPEE "?
A ethnic group of people?
A religious group of people?
Or both of the above?
I remember that many Cretans identified first as Cretans and then as Greeks.
Same in Mani, Corfu and other places of Greece.
I have the impression that many EU politicians want us to identify the other 
way round.
First as Europeans then as nationals and last from the region we are from.
I know that Bavarians are Germans but as people different then Germans from 
North Germany.
Back to the laws.
Greeks have no problems with alcohol but many people from North Europe have.
Having the same laws for all people would mean that we are to apply either 
the rules and laws of South Europe to North Europe or the other way round, 
which would be very wrong.
So you are for local culture and local laws that should apply to local 
cultures?
Is this what you mean with the self determination of
" SPEES "?
                                            
Grand
Actually SPEEs has nothing to do with locality, they are more legal
than local. SPEE stands for SocioPoliticoEconomicEntity. A dinamic
group of humanbeings show their identity sharing the same culture
based on their laws, rituals. Members of such a group of humanbeings
are not necessarily tide up by locality. It is up to SPEE's laws in
the end how to identify their members.
                                            
boras
But we have this already:
The Kurds in Turkey are a different SocioPoliticoEconomicEntity then the 
Turks and thereby oppressed by the Turkish government.
Also if you are very rich you belong to a different 
SocioPoliticoEconomicEntity and the law won't touch you.
As they say in Germany: " The little ones they hang but the big ones 
they let go ".
If you steal 5000 you are a thief but if you steal 1 billion you are a 
gentleman.
                                            
Mhitsos
viestissä:[email protected]

What we have is not fascism.
Do some readings about fascism.
What we have is not democracy either, if we think that democracy means thall 
all people have the same rights and that those people voted in to power have 
the interest of their voters at heart or their nation as a whole.
Giving political power to religious leaders would make things only worse.
I suggest giving more power to the people.
In short: Lets work for a real democracy = Peoples power.
And let those who represent us really represent us or kick them out of 
office.
http://www.statewatch.org/
http://www.statewatch.org/soseurope.htm
http://www.democracyineurope.com/
The bigest crime ever is to try to destroy the identity of people.
This is what Kemal Ataturk the fascist did to the people who were living in 
the former ottoman empire, he renamed them to " Turks ".
Tollerance: Is when I can be who I am and you can be who you are AND vica 
versa.
I am a Greek with my roots going back to the Greeks from Asia Minor, Smyrna.
Most Turks are not geneticaly Mongolic Turks or only partly so.
They must seek their identity in their genetical makeup and embrace the fact 
that most of their ......
                                            
Grand
Yes it is, it dictaes its laws to all SPEEs. It is a mono-law, mono-
culture
monolithic system,


You do some reading about politics of modern state structures. Modern
states are organised around a Constitution and laws made by sigle body
of law makers. And once a law is done our modern state assumes to
impose it to all. Every law is done by one law-making body. That is
what makes it fascist. Also main principles of the laws made by this
body are based on secularism, then this type of state structure is
rightly named as secularo-fascist. Under any unit state like that
there are more than one SPEEs who have their own laws develoiped
through out their history within their culture. In a modern monolithic
state those are completely ignored, modern states function is not to
cater SPEEs but rather to assimilate them to their secularo-fascism by
their laws and power.
                                            
boras
So yoy want the Koran instead and your choice of imam?


Not really. It depends on if you can afford a good lawyer and if you can 
bribe the judge.

No. Different factions are involved in the making of a law unless you 
are talking about the future EU.

I am an atheist. Got no problem with that. You must be Taliban then?


Nobody is a secular-fascist because he isn't practicing sharia law.
OK now I understand where you from.
Cutting a hand off for the theft of an apple?
Cutting the tongue off for telling a lie?

Wrong word.
You don't mean social political entiety but religiousfanaticorganisation.
Shortly: RFO


I rather live under the laws of France or Italy then those of Saudi 
Arabia or former Taliban controlled Afghanistan.
Not having the freedom of speech and the freedom of movement, THAT*S 
fascism to me.

You are so much against secularism that I think your agenda is a 
religious one.
Well I don't want to be ruled by religion.
And I am an atheist by the way.
sounds kind of left wing but after your last comment I think you are the 
Taliban type.
I am for real democracy but you are dogmatic.
Freedom for religion and especially FROM religion.
Monolythic, thats you because you only can think in terms of secular or 
.. you are not even man enough to spell it out hiding behind a pseudo 
socialist phrase. Come on Taliban boy spill it out ..
                                            
Mhitsos
viestissä:[email protected]
Got interupted, my one hour was up.

The problem of the FYROManians is a different one.
Bulgarian people who come 600-700 AD to the Balkans, conquered the place 
knows as Macedonia and become " Macedonians " because Tito renamed them so 
for political reasons.
Genetically Fyromanians are not 100% Bulgarians but mostly they are.
The other minor genetic parts being Serb, Greek, Albanian and Turk
                                            
Nashton
We do, when we elect our representatives.


Which bosses are you talking about?


See above. We *do* make our own laws.


Impose laws? So you're against a legal framework in which to live your 
life? This would be a paradise for thugs and criminals.


Cute. Now how about backing up your assertions with substance instead of 
repeating the same meaningless slogans?
                                            
Grand
no!
not at all, but I am against the legal frame of secularo-fascism to be
imposed to all over other legal frames of SPEEs abolishing their
freedoms of law making.


If they were meaningless, they wouldn't be cute, would they?
For the substance read my all related postings.